Would you invest???

[QC]

Re: Would you invest???

But if you have CNG/LNG feeding your BBQ now, why not take advantage of it???

Just to be clear. If you have this stuff feeding your barbeque, then it's feeding your house. And it is "Natural Gas" not CNG or LNG. The difference is that CNG is just that, Compressed Natural Gas. Your house is at 2 psi. CNG is at 3000 or 3600 psi (200 - 250 bar). LNG is Liquified. Which is basically Natural Gas cooled to -259 F, and must be stored in Cryogenic Dewars (tanks). If you have a tank under your BBQ, it is LPG.

Again, the "why not?" is only how much you spend for a compressor and the vehicle equipment, divided up by the savings. If you can make it pencil, then go for it . . .

 

[rbh]

Re: Would you invest???

Just to be clear. If you have this stuff feeding your barbeque, then it's feeding your house. And it is "Natural Gas" not CNG or LNG. The difference is that CNG is just that, Compressed Natural Gas. Your house is at 2 psi. CNG is at 3000 or 3600 psi (200 - 250 bar). LNG is Liquified. Which is basically Natural Gas cooled to -259 F, and must be stored in Cryogenic Dewars (tanks). If you have a tank under your BBQ, it is LPG.

Again, the "why not?" is only how much you spend for a compressor and the vehicle equipment, divided up by the savings. If you can make it pencil, then go for it . . .

OK then, lets see if I am following you???
LPG = liquified propane gas, "propane bottles" for BBQ, filling stations for cars/trucks ETC
(and yes every thing natural gas does but more expensive)

NG = natural gas, "what the gas company pumps into you house through miles of buried yellow pipes" for your furnace, hot water heater, dryer, BBQ, ETC

CNG/LNG bulk transportable????

 

[QC]

Re: Would you invest???

LPG = liquified propane gas, "propane bottles" for BBQ, filling stations for cars/trucks ETC(and yes every thing natural gas does but more expensive)

It is Propane. So NOT everything that Natural Gas (Methane) is. Propane can be stored as a liquid, under low pressure, at ambient temperatures. That's why the tanks are cheap. As a gas it is heavier than air and has a lower Octane than Methane. 100 vs. 120ish Propane is expensive because it is less abundant.

NG = natural gas, "what the gas company pumps into you house through miles of buried yellow pipes" for your furnace, hot water heater, dryer, BBQ, ETC

CNG/LNG bulk transportable????

Sort of. Propane is bulk transportable because of the properties I mentioned above.

CNG (high pressure) is transportable in what are called tube trailers which is basically a trailer of high pressure tanks.

Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) is transportable in Cryogenic tankers. Cryogenic means extremely cold and LNG needs to stay around -259 to stay liquid unless you allow the temp to rise a little by keeping it under pressure. Most is delivered at around 20 PSI pressure and that allows the boiling point to rise to say -240 F. Still really eff'n cold. This makes transportation more costly than LPG, but the commodity is less, so it is still lower cost per BTU or whatever unit you want to use.

Methane (both LNG and CNG) is lighter than air so if it leaks it just goes up and there is a relatively low safety concern. Propane will actually "puddle" as a gas and sit in bilges, sewers, basements etc. Methane will find it's way up and out if you let it. The safety concern is only if you contain it at a combustible air fuel ratio. Basically, lots of air and a little fuel. Like a house with the windows closed and the stove left on but not lit. Switch on something that sparks and But again it has to be contained, left to drift, non-issue. Spill on the highway, non-issue. Basically concentrated cow farts floating away with the breeze. Methane is all around you, part of the atmosphere, comes out of landfills, us, bio waste, water treatment plants and usually found along with oil and in pockets by itself, within shale, coal beds etc. etc. etc.

 

[rbh]

Re: Would you invest???

It is Propane. So NOT everything that Natural Gas (Methane) is. Propane can be stored as a liquid, under low pressure, at ambient temperatures. That's why the tanks are cheap. As a gas it is heavier than air and has a lower Octane than Methane. 100 vs. 120ish Propane is expensive because it is less abundant.


Sort of. Propane is bulk transportable because of the properties I mentioned above.

CNG (high pressure) is transportable in what are called tube trailers which is basically a trailer of high pressure tanks.

Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) is transportable in Cryogenic tankers. Cryogenic means extremely cold and LNG needs to stay around -259 to stay liquid unless you allow the temp to rise a little by keeping it under pressure. Most is delivered at around 20 PSI pressure and that allows the boiling point to rise to say -240 F. Still really eff'n cold. This makes transportation more costly than LPG, but the commodity is less, so it is still lower cost per BTU or whatever unit you want to use.

Methane (both LNG and CNG) is lighter than air so if it leaks it just goes up and there is a relatively low safety concern. Propane will actually "puddle" as a gas and sit in bilges, sewers, basements etc. Methane will find it's way up and out if you let it. The safety concern is only if you contain it at a combustible air fuel ratio. Basically, lots of air and a little fuel. Like a house with the windows closed and the stove left on but not lit. Switch on something that sparks and But again it has to be contained, left to drift, non-issue. Spill on the highway, non-issue. Basically concentrated cow farts floating away with the breeze. Methane is all around you, part of the atmosphere, comes out of landfills, us, bio waste, water treatment plants and usually found along with oil and in pockets by itself, within shale, coal beds etc. etc. etc.

Gotcha!!
just had to see were you were going with the acronims (SP)
They have been talking for years about a CNG/LNG shipping port out of Prince Rupert and area for years for distrabution to south east asia.
As you know North America has been molded for millions of years and between the coal bed methane, and the oil/natural gas wells, were rolling in the stuff!!!!

So lets use it.

 

[j_martin]

Re: Would you invest???

The way I see it, we're trying to jam square pegs into round holes.
Gasoline and fuel oil are ideal motor fuels.
Natural gas is ideal for heating, electrical peak generation, and chemical process feed.
Propane is a reasonable and portable substitute for natural gas in remote applications.
corn is good food
soybeans also are food.

my 02
John

 

[QC]

Re: Would you invest???

You are actually right. Only one problem, you assume that oil will retain it's economic advantage. Ultimately it doesn't matter what you or I think. What matters is what the value proposition is. I am biased, but I also have a 30+ year career in heavy trucks. Diesel is a very tough act to follow. Natural Gas is the only one that can come close, and the only one that can do it at a lower cost per mile . . . by 13 cents a mile. Nothing else can do that and not lose significant payload. Here we are doing 140 metric tons in Australia (over 3x the US gross loads of 36 metric tons). US driveline, US engine, US truck with some mods for the load, Natural gas fuel:

LNG storage on back of truck: